Bingham
10/9/2016 23:37:33
Why was slavery so much more prominent in Greco-Roman civilization than in India or China?
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student
14/9/2016 18:26:39
Why weren't there more slaves in India and China? Why couldn't slaves play a critical role in economy of the Indian and Chinese civilizations? Why didn't slaves participate in a more diverse array of occupations in India and China?
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Amy Vaughan
14/9/2016 21:02:01
Relating to what this nameless individual above has commented, I read your listed characteristics of Greco-Roman slavery as just that, unique characteristics. Wouldn't those be descriptors of how G-R slavery was unique to other second-wave civs (MQ6) rather than why slavery was so important to G-R civilization? Am I just reading the question incorrectly?
Eliza Pillsbury
14/9/2016 21:14:17
I thought about the question as comparing and contrasting the unique features of each civilization, rather than just describing Roman slavery.
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Amy Vaughan
14/9/2016 21:29:48
I think you've got the right idea. My arguement is that slavery=coercion of labor, and no one in China or India really needed to be coerced into doing a particular job because caste/class assigned it for them. (of course I would elaborate a little more)
Eliza Pillsbury
14/9/2016 21:39:25
You could also question what is defined as coerced labor. If members of the case system did not perform their caste duties, they were threatened with social ostracism and perhaps consequences in their next life. The unavailability of social alternatives to the caste system and the harsh consequences for not fulfilling caste obligations could be a form of coercion in themselves. What do you think?
Amy Vaughan
15/9/2016 11:41:31
Yes! I completely agree and I was thinking about that earlier. It does seem like the caste system did have slavery, but that it just called it by a different name.
Bingham
10/9/2016 23:40:40
What philosophical, religious, or cultural ideas served to legitimate the class and gender inequalities of classical civilizations?
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Melina
11/9/2016 18:55:43
Big picture question: what is the difference between class and caste-
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Bri Al-Bahish
11/9/2016 21:08:46
That's a really good answer. I could be wrong, but I also think caste was a broader category and many different classes could fit into one caste. Caste remained pretty rigid, but within classes, there were specializations and a type of class hierarchy that was not as rigid. Someone please correct me if I am wrong or if there is anything I need to add.
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Bri Al-Bahish
11/9/2016 21:26:27
Wait. Never mind. I think I misread the question. Ignore my previous post above.
Amy Vaughan
12/9/2016 19:25:44
I would add that classes represented a much broader category than caste. In the caste system, you have a specific and known place in the social order of your community (varna + jati), where as in the class system, you are a part of a class that encompasses all of your empire (all of the peasants in China)
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Cindy Xia
13/9/2016 19:21:13
Would you also say that class is also associated with land? Such as how landowners in ancient China were able to exercise so much power against the authorities + peasant class based on the size of their estates? Then again, property can be associated with wealth....
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Audrey Mills
15/9/2016 20:26:06
Also, though the caste system isn't based on income, income generally correlates with caste. The lower your caste, and the lower your jati within your varna, the less money you make
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Bingham
11/9/2016 20:07:19
Oh, someone is actually doing what I told you guys to do, and not giving in to old, do-it-at-the-last-minute habits?
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Bri Al-Bahish
11/9/2016 21:24:13
How did India's caste system differ from China's class system? How were they similar?
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Amy Vaughan
12/9/2016 19:42:13
Seeking the Main Point: To what extent were the massive inequalities of second-wave civilizations generally accepted, and in what ways were they challenged?
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Eliza Pillsbury
14/9/2016 20:38:22
Amy, could you say that attempts at social mobility were a form of resistance to the social rigidity of some civilizations? Such as how merchants in China and jatis in India sought to improve their social standing through buying land.
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Amy Vaughan
14/9/2016 21:36:00
That's really interesting- I hadn't thought about it that way before. Would that be resistance though, or would it be conforming to certain behaviors or practices associated with higher status? Maybe a mix of both?
Eliza Pillsbury
14/9/2016 21:42:42
I agree that social mobility often came from conforming to practices of higher classes (almost in a "fake it 'til you make it" kind of way.) The question specifically asks to resistance against social inequality...So I guess social mobility was resisting one's position among the in the unequal social order, but not necessarily resisting the practice of social inequality itself. Does that make sense?
Amy Vaughan
12/9/2016 19:57:19
I'm a little confused about women fit into the caste system. The duties of certain castes were sometimes specific to only men (ex: Kshatriya and Brahmins). If a woman was born into the Kshatriya class, she wouldn't be allowed to fulfill the warrior duties of Kshatriya members. Also, she wouldn't be allowed to associate with people outside of her varna and jati, so she would have to marry another local Kshatriya.
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Arielle Ollagnon
12/9/2016 21:32:03
I was also kind of confused, I guess I just assumed that women's castes were in connection by their relationships to males and that they were just kind of giving birth all the time and taking care of their children while the men did their assigned duties? Not sure though...
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Amy Vaughan
12/9/2016 21:53:50
Adding on to that, if you look carefully, Strayer mentions in passing that (in India, at least) rich women stayed at home, while poor women worked outside the home if they absolutely had to.
Amy Vaughan
12/9/2016 23:05:39
We should make a practice margin question with this- "How did the roles of women differ throughout the second wave civilizations?"
Amy Vaughan
12/9/2016 20:02:21
MQ1: Description: How would you characterize the social hierarchy of China during the second-wave era?
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Matilda Smolij
12/9/2016 21:23:19
Should you include Priests before government officials? (Priests> gov't officials> landlords> peasants > merchants)
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Amy Vaughan
12/9/2016 21:31:53
I don't think so. I would definitely include priests as the top tier in India's social hierarchy, which was more based on religion (Hinduism). China was more politically centered, though, so their elite was comprised of government officials.
matilda smolij
12/9/2016 21:53:59
ah yes so sorry just noticed that it said China:/
Yasmeen Gaber
12/9/2016 21:24:36
That's definitely how it worked, but I think it might also be worth noting the distinctions between the class connotations of the peasants and the merchants, because they both had generally not-so-great lives, but the peasants still had an element of status and respect in the society because they basically ran they economy. The default dependency of peasants on landlords might also be noteworthy. Other than specific descriptions like that, you definitely have a clear, succinct answer (which has definitely helped me to piece it all together).
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Amy Vaughan
12/9/2016 21:36:26
Gotcha. So the Chinese valued productivity, therefore they valued peasants (producers of food), over merchants (sold products made by others). Also, side note: despite its unpopular connotations to brutality, legalism seems to still be influencing the Chinese mindset.
Bingham
13/9/2016 06:52:07
This seems to be a workable shorthand in answer to that question, but my approach would be to start with a more thorough "characterization."
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Cindy Xia
12/9/2016 20:08:05
MQ#7: In what ways did the expression of Chinese patriarchy change over time, and why did it change?
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Amy Vaughan
12/9/2016 20:23:35
Wow this is a great break down of that section. If it helps you think in terms of change, you might even group some of these together (1-3 representing strict traditional Confucian views on women and their place in the home, 4 being a transition period into the less strict patriarchy through the influence of nomadic traditions, and 5-10 telling of the greater independence and given to women in the Tang dynasty.)
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Cindy Xia
13/9/2016 07:50:04
Oh, that's a great idea. Thanks Amy.
Eliza Pillsbury
13/9/2016 20:58:52
Rarely, women could sometimes exercise political power through a relationship (wife, concubine) of the emperor or by leading a peasant rebellion. This increased anti-female hostility among the elite officials.
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Jeylan Jones
12/9/2016 21:36:13
how did the inequalities of slavery differ from those of the caste system?
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Bingham
13/9/2016 06:57:13
Pretty good Jeylan, I would just add:
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Eliza Pillsbury
13/9/2016 20:09:16
I think your comment about the lack of moral criticism of slavery is very interesting, but how does this differentiate slavery from the caste system? Was there criticism of the caste system? I remember Strayer mentioning that Indian religious writings often supported ritual purity and pollution and other social inequalities, which implies advocacy instead of criticism. So does your statement become a similarity rather than a difference? What do you think?
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Eliza Pillsbury
13/9/2016 20:12:25
I would also add that slaves could be bought and sold and worked without pay, unlike the caste system.
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Amy Vaughan
13/9/2016 20:38:43
I was thinking of adding some similarities as well! Here are a few others I've come up with:
Eliza Pillsbury
13/9/2016 21:05:48
Well, you could also say that they differed in the extent to which they assigned identity. The caste system allowed its participants much more cultural and social identity by assigning them a secure and distinct place in society. In contrast, the slaves did not have any identity other than being slaves. (I guess it's all relative. I can see how this tiny identity could count as a similarity to the caste system, but I thought about it in a different way.)
Eliza Pillsbury
13/9/2016 21:08:43
Combining what Jeylan and Amy said, I observe that though there was exclusion to both the slaves and the untouchables, slaves could still work alongside freed men while the untouchables were just that--spiritually and physically untouchable. (see ritual purity and pollution)
Amy Vaughan
13/9/2016 20:34:27
I might add that even though some societies instituted protective laws for slaves (owners had to provide them with minimal support), their lives were still much more chaotic and dangerous than those in the caste system, because they had less control (they were owned by masters and could be sold at any time).
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melina bezanis
13/9/2016 16:42:50
In what ways were India's social organization similar to China's?
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Melina Bezanis
13/9/2016 16:57:31
Reasons Chinese and Indian civilizations were different:
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Marisa W
14/9/2016 21:27:00
Another difference is that china society was based around the state, where as the society of India was more centered around the varnas.
Melina Bezanis
13/9/2016 16:53:42
5 reasons why Wang Mang's reforms were unsuccessful:
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Melina Bezanis
13/9/2016 16:59:32
sorry i also forgot to add
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Bingham
14/9/2016 06:27:56
Cause and effect here; the poor harvests were a result of floods and led to famine. All of these should be part of your answer Melina, but demonstrate you see the causative relationships.
Cindy Xia
13/9/2016 18:51:37
MQ#2: What class conflicts disrupted Chinese society?
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Eliza Pillsbury
13/9/2016 19:46:29
What is the difference between the varna and jati expressions of caste?
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Eliza Pillsbury
13/9/2016 19:54:12
Looking at my answer, I want to confirm that my comment about the varna system being based on race continued to be accurate even as the Indian civilization expanded and absorbed different cultures. I know it originated with the first three varnas being Aryan and the Sudras natives incorporated as servants. So if I change the sentence to read "originally" instead of "primarily" is that more accurate?
Cassie Barham
13/9/2016 20:01:43
You kind of touched on this when you said that the jatis were part of local hierarchies, but I think you could add that the varna system was considered universal and immutable. By comparison, the practice of jati was more fluid, as it varied from region to region.
Yasmeen Gaber
13/9/2016 20:20:22
I was having a little trouble with this. The jatis seemed like a more in-depth categorization of people in the caste system, which was more open to jati mobility, whereas jatis were grouped into varnas, which could not and did not move themselves because they were seen as parts of the god Purusha. Does that make sense/is that accurate?
Sofia Puccio
13/9/2016 20:28:08
I would definitely say "originally" instead of "primarily."
Amy Vaughan
13/9/2016 20:53:52
If anyone is having trouble with varna vs jati, what I did was draw a big circle representing all South Asians of the time. Within that circle, I drew four big circles- one for each varna (I view varna as similar to the Chinese classes, overencompassing all people). Within the varna circles, I drew smaller circles representing jati. I think of jati as organization through small, local guilds of people sharing a particular varna.
Yasmeen Gaber
13/9/2016 21:18:56
Thanks, Amy! That really puts it into perspective. What did you put for the example jatis? Would it just be artisans, merchants, farmers, etc?
Bingham
14/9/2016 09:08:46
You guys are so good at this! I think Eliza's answer works. Here was my approach:
Taylor Scott
14/9/2016 23:04:04
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that 2 statements under #2 (state authorities required payment of taxes and demanded a month's labor on various projects) would relate closer as causes to number 3, peasant rebellions. The state also conscripting young men could also be a cause that led to peasant rebellions.
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Cassie Barham
13/9/2016 19:39:52
MQ: What class conflicts disrupted Chinese society?
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Cassie Barham
13/9/2016 19:49:41
MQ: How did the patriarchies of Athens and Sparta differ from each other?
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Cassie Barham
13/9/2016 20:12:16
Question I came up with: What accounted for the the spectrum of wealth within the peasant class in China?
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Cassie Barham
13/9/2016 20:22:30
Another question I came up with: How did the caste-based social structure shape India's emerging civilization?
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Cassie Barham
13/9/2016 20:27:51
How did war, patriarchy, and the notion of private property contribute to the growth of slavery?
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Cassie Barham
13/9/2016 20:36:21
In what ways were women active agents in the histories of societies, and what accounts for the persistence of women's subordination despite their historical contributions?
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Eliza Pillsbury
13/9/2016 20:44:21
How did Greco-Roman slavery differ from that of other classical civilizations?
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Amy Vaughan
13/9/2016 21:13:36
Okay, so this is a really tricky comparison because there is so much variation within the category of slavery that it's hard to generalize. Also, there isn't much info given about slavery in other societies. So, how do we know if something listed as characteristic of Roman slavery is unique to it? For example, in your two points, "slaves worked for no pay" and "slaves could be bought and sold," do you think that these features are exclusive to Rome's system of slavery or do you think they apply to slavery in general? This is something I've been struggling with, so I would love to hear your interpretation.
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Yasmeen Gaber
13/9/2016 21:32:20
I definitely think that "slaves worked for no pay" and "could be bought and sold" weren't unique to Greco-Roman society because they're mostly the definition of a slave (if you own property, you won't pay it to keep it, and if you can own a person, you can buy and sell them) but it probably worked slightly differently in the East. Also, it is worth noting that slaves didn't occupy a specific class in Greece and Rome, doing everything from teaching and practicing medicine to working in brothels. They also often worked alongside free people. However, the set-up of the question is kind of annoying because there's kind of a Venn diagram of Greece vs. Rome within the Venn diagram of Greco-Roman Civilizations vs. China/India/Persia, and with that kind of a set-up, you have to zoom out a lot and really look at the structure of the system of slavery and how it was approached in society rather than the actuality of how it worked.
Eliza Pillsbury
13/9/2016 21:34:47
Ahh, I see. I misread the question. I was reading it as contrasting slavery to other forms of social organization in classical civilizations. I will revisit this question and get back to you, Amy, because you bring up a good point.
Amy Vaughan
13/9/2016 21:23:57
Also, Aristotle came up with the idea of "slaves by nature"- that some people were meant to be enslaved for their own good.
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Yasmeen Gaber
13/9/2016 21:34:55
Bouncing off of that, didn't they believe that slaves were akin to animals ("an ox is a poor man's slave", or something to that effect? I remember reading that but I'm not sure if I'm just super tired or I actually did read that.
elizapills@aol.com
13/9/2016 21:37:17
Expanding on the last margin question, has anyone found any similarities between Athenian and Spartan patriarchies? (I am going to look closer tomorrow when I don't feel as brain dead, but none are coming to mine upon my initial read.)
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Cassie Barham
13/9/2016 21:49:59
I'm in the same situation as you, as far as being brain-dead goes. However, off the top of my head, I would say that women in both Athens and Sparta lacked any formal public roles (politically or otherwise).
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Amy Vaughan
13/9/2016 22:23:41
The only one I came up with was that women's main role was to provide sons for their respective societies.
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Sofia Puccio
13/9/2016 22:19:29
This isn't an official question or anything, just something I was thinking about.
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Eliza Pillsbury
14/9/2016 16:29:47
FUN FACT! Amy, Owen, and I made the connection that the Mulan movie most likely took place during the formation of the Tang Dynasty. This reflects the loosening patriarchy in China, if this helps you remember!
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Amy Vaughan
14/9/2016 21:17:30
Were all landowners members of the "scholar gentry?" Strayer writes that "they (landowners) benefited both from the wealth that their estates generated and from the power and prestige that accompanied their education and their membership in the official elite." He goes on to mention the scholar gentry class. So were only the most successful of the landowners a part of the scholar gentry class? Was this like a little mini class? I'm very confused.
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Mad Chase
14/9/2016 21:29:37
I don't know if this will help anyone but it really helped me organize my thoughts for MQ7
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Eliza Pillsbury
14/9/2016 21:35:49
Oh no! The link isn't working for me! Is there another way to view your organization? I had some trouble with this question, so I am curious how you answered it
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Mad Chase
14/9/2016 21:51:19
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Im8CXp-KK6XQxwd9PZgLRgPpvcGCZ_uCwRhzDEa4ibM/edit?usp=sharing
Mad Chase
14/9/2016 21:58:39
I obviously don't know if this is explicitly right so other ideas are welcome. Saying that I believe that putting the ideas of patriarchy on a spectrum in relation to the China timeline is really visually helpful. I would also like to note that the spectrum fluctuates it is not strictly dark to light but light to dark to light to lighter.
Mad Chase
14/9/2016 22:04:43
To break China's patriachal system into phases these would be my groups:
Amy Vaughan
14/9/2016 21:58:32
I'm confused as to how to interpret BPQ4: What changes in the patterns of social life in second-wave civilizations can you identify? What accounts for these changes?
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Eliza Pillsbury
14/9/2016 22:01:16
This question is confusing me, too.
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Amy Vaughan
14/9/2016 22:17:22
Honestly, I didn't identify any completely new concepts of inequality in the second wave civilizations. It seems to me that they took what inequality they already had (slavery, patriarchy, differences in wealth) and intensified them. Could this work as an answer, or does the answer have to be in support of changes in social patterns?
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Amy Vaughan
14/9/2016 22:26:52
This is if you interpret the question as in relation to other previous civilizations.
Bingham
15/9/2016 06:42:22
BPQ4 is confusing because it implies that there were changes, but really, the answer is, "not much!" That's why you are struggling with it. This is classic AP stuff, you've been trained your whole life by questions that have clear answers, but college board (and people like Strayer) will test your understanding by asking a misdirecting question. It required a high degree of confidence. I'd simply say:
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Taylor Scott
14/9/2016 23:22:30
MQ3: What set of ideas underlies India's caste-based society
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Taylor Scott
14/9/2016 23:37:40
This idea is under the heading Caste as Jati.
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Ashi Porter
15/9/2016 00:11:43
I may be wrong but couldn't you also add the fact that the jatis and the varna system combined formed the caste system as well?
Amy Vaughan
15/9/2016 11:45:51
I would add the ideas of karma, dharma and rebirth. These, along with the threat of social ostracism, were what mainly kept people in line in the caste system.
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Yasmeen Gaber
15/9/2016 18:48:13
Here is my attempt at one of the questions on the "Strayer 5 in Class" OneNote page:
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Amy Vaughan
15/9/2016 19:07:29
Also under your category of valuing productivity- peasants didn't have it that bad in the hierarchy (granted, in some cases conditions were not great), and their work was valued by society. Because of this, they were willing to occupy jobs that others were normally forced into.
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Yasmeen Gaber
15/9/2016 19:28:13
Thanks for clarifying that. I think the way that I put it was a little less to-the-point. By being "willing to occupy jobs that others were normally forced into", do you mean the types of work that the untouchables in India did, or just general farm labor?
Amy Vaughan
15/9/2016 20:30:07
Well, maybe not the work of the untouchables, but definitely the labor intensive farm work of the Vaisya and eventually Sudra. In India, farming was a little less celebrated.
Amy Vaughan
15/9/2016 19:05:08
BPQ5: Looking Back: Cultural and social patterns of civilizations seem to endure longer than the political framework of states and empires. What evidence from Chapters 3,4, and 5 might support this statement? How might you account for this phenomenon? Is there evidence that could support a contrary position?
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Bingham
15/9/2016 19:33:14
I would add that it isn't just social.patterns that last beyond empires, but cultural traditions as well. For example Christianity, ConfusIanism, rationalism, and Buddhism.
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Yasmeen Gaber
15/9/2016 19:58:59
MQ: How did the patriarchies of Athens and Sparta differ from each other?
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Amy Vaughan
15/9/2016 20:31:15
I would argue that both women from Sparta and Athens had the primary purpose of producing sons (although perhaps to a greater degree in Sparta).
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Yasmeen Gaber
15/9/2016 20:37:31
Good point! I listed it as a specific attribute of Spartan patriarchy because this was a warrior culture, and although women couldn't fight, they were as much a part of the warrior culture as the men because producing sons was equally important to the culture as the actual fighting (a much heavier degree of pressure and importance than that of Athenian women). I agree that they certainly had that in common, but the difference was in the way that they approached the reproduction of women.
Bingham
16/9/2016 08:54:41
Exactly. "Come back with your shield, or on it!"
Yasmeen Gaber
15/9/2016 20:24:46
MQ: How did the inequalities of slavery differ from that of caste?
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Amelia
4/10/2017 08:38:55
What set of ideas underlies India's caste-based society?
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BinghamWelcome class of 2019. Some years students collaborate in this space effectively, some years not so much. One thing I know, collaboration significantly enhances learning. If you want access to my thoughts, this is the collaboration space to use. Most people propose an answer to margin questions, big picture question, or anything else related to managing Strayer. Other people can then comment leading to a stronger answer. I'll keep an eye on these pages, and pop in when I think you need me. Archives
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