Strayer 4, Eurasian Cultural Developments

9/2/2016

Well, the Strayer 3 test must have been a shock! But remember my "Hacking through the Jungle" analogy, each time through the jungle gets easier, and the payoff at the resort is well worth the effort. The first time is never easy. Don't die on the beach!

79 Comments

Cassie Barham

9/4/2016 08:33:06 am

Hi! So as I was reading the section on Confucianism, I began to think about why it seemed to be so much more effective than Legalism as a sustainable system and about how it was so accepted into Chinese culture. This is what I took away from the text.

In Confucianism, the family served as a model for politics. Through this, family life and political life paralleled each other. This comparability prevented a disconnect from occurring between the functions of the Chinese bureaucracy and Chinese society's customs and values. This led to a more unified and homogeneous civilization, which the Chinese people embraced.

On the other hand, Legalism selectively promoted certain groups of people in Chinese society (farmers and soldiers), while actively suppressing others (merchants, aristocrats, scholars, etc). The brutal oppression of Legalism (particularly under Shihuangdi) created a divide between the Chinese bureaucracy and a large number of the Chinese people. Because of this, Confucianism was a much more viable method for order and harmony within China.

These were the primary reasons that I deduced from the two sections in the books. What are y'all's thoughts? Thanks so much :)

Cassie Barham

9/4/2016 08:44:26 am

In addition, I just have an observation about Legalism. In a way, it was really ironic; one of the principles of Legalism was that only the state and its rulers could perform in the long-term interests of the people. This is despite that fact that Legalism was very short lived and only provided short-term unification and solutions (under Shihuangdi) due to its brutality. I found that pretty funny while I was reading.

Sofia Puccio

9/4/2016 01:02:54 pm

Great point about parallels between family/political life, I agree. Could you also say that another reason why Confucianism caught on so quickly is because family life was already a central element of Chinese popular culture and was therefore more accessible to the majority of the population?

Cassie Barham

9/4/2016 02:32:25 pm

I think the familiarity family values was definitely a significant part of why Confucianism became so associated with Chinese culture. Confucianism also in a way heightened the importance of family life by applying that model to politics, and that would have raised the stakes (and in turn increased motivation) to maintain harmonious family situations. Like Strayer says, filial piety not only held significance in its own right, but also functioned as a training ground for the reverence due to the state.

Cassie Barham

9/4/2016 02:56:18 pm

Sorry, I meant familiarity OF family values :)

Yasmeen Gaber

9/4/2016 03:16:04 pm

Interesting points! I agree with you for the most part, but on the topic of class subjugation, this was not a Legalism-specific concept; Confucianism accepted and often touted social inequality (the presence of "superior men"), and its values left civil servants superior to military men and merchants (although this was less active than Legalism). The Legalistic divide was certainly harsher than Confucianism, but Confucianism was nonetheless divisive in its own right. One might say that Confucianism's optimism regarding human nature propelled people to be more independently moral rather than strict government intervention, which is why Confucianism was generally more popular. I hope that was helpful!

Cassie Barham

9/4/2016 05:54:40 pm

I see where you are coming from, but I don't mean to say there wasn't inequality in Confucianism. You are right in saying Confucianism advocated hierarchies. However, I think a key differentiation between Legalism and Confucianism is the way these hierarchies were justified in each system. In Legalism, authoritative, social, and political power lay in the hands of the state and its rulers, who in practice used this prowess at the expense of the majority of the Chinese people. Where Confucianism is concerned however, the cultivation of sincerity and benevolence on the part of "superior" parties was key in maintaining a tranquil society. This includes the relationship with the state authorities and the Chinese people, and the way the appropriate behavior for these large-scale relationships and circumstances was communicated was often through the telescoped version of family dynamics. In a very important aspect, I think it could be said that this created understanding between the state and its people, which would have created a more united civilization than one under Legalism.

Your insight really made me think about this from a different perspective.You pointed out some crucial things; thanks for the direction!

Yasmeen Gaber

9/4/2016 07:04:06 pm

I definitely understand where you're coming from. The way I thought about this was like two different parenting styles: super strict (unnecessarily so) and more relaxed but with a clear set of boundaries. If you're superfluously strict with a teen, you're often less likely to get results than when you treat them "with benevolence", while also maintaining a clear parent-child relationship. All of that also ties into the Confucian analogy of family to government. I hope that makes sense!

Cassie Barham

9/4/2016 08:01:41 pm

Ha! I really like that. It's interesting too, considering that Legalism and Confucianism (and Daoism) were formulated as responses to the disorder and chaos of China during the age of the warring states--almost like disciplinary measures a parent might take on an out of control kid.

Bingham

9/5/2016 12:08:41 pm

That's exactly what Confucius was attempting to accomplish, establish order at the family level, and let those ideas percolate up through society - including to the state.

Amy Vaughan

9/5/2016 02:39:06 pm

MQ2: Why has Confucianism been defined as a "humanistic philosophy" rather than a supernatural religion?

Confucianism was more focused on human relationships and moral ascension than it was on the divine/supernatural. While Confucius did not deny the existence of otherworldly beings, he believed that it was more important to first understanding human life.

This answer is pretty concise, which makes me afraid that it is too vague. Should I add more detail? Thanks :)

Yasmeen Gaber

9/5/2016 02:47:58 pm

That's almost verbatim what I wrote. Because I've seen mostly 3-5 line answer spaces on the tests we've taken, I tried to practice being able to answer the margin/big picture questions both fully and concisely to fit that requirement. I'm not sure that there's more you can say to answer that question without getting verbose. Certainly, we could talk about the concepts of wen and wu and the social structure erected by Confucius, but to answer the question, I think what you have is all we need. Let's see what others have to say on the subject!

Bingham

9/5/2016 03:15:49 pm

Concise is the opposite of vague!

Audrey Mills

9/7/2016 07:56:29 pm

Thank you for the concise answer! I find it interesting how Confucianism is similar to Buddhism in this respect, as the Buddha was more focused on personal transformation and, while not denying their existence, deemed gods or supernatural beings them irrelevant to his teachings. (Though this does not apply in the modified, Mahayana form of Buddhism that incorporates the bodhisattvas.)

Amy Vaughan

9/5/2016 03:16:46 pm

MQ1: Comparison: What different answers to the problem of disorder arose in classical China?
-Legalism: only the state could be trusted to make good decisions; arranged a system of punishments and rewards to maintain order.
-Confucianism: kept/accepted social inequality; taught that those in authority should set a good moral example for their subjects, and could better their morality through education; doing so would keep the harmony among the people
-Daoism: urged for withdrawal into nature, encouraging simple living and spontaneous behavior; discouraged education, viewing it as the source of conflict/chaos; dealt with disorder by trying to regress to a time before disorder

Eliza Pillsbury

9/5/2016 03:41:42 pm

Amy, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Confucianism was the philosophy that advocated regression to the "Golden Age"? Strayer says, "Confucianism also placed great importance on history, for the ideal good society lay in the past. Confucian ideas were reformist, perhaps even revolutionary, but they were consistently presented as an effort to restore a past golden age." This passage came to mind when I read your description of Daoism. Am I misinterpreting? Thank you!

Matilda

9/5/2016 06:04:44 pm

Not sure if this is important/too specific but Strayer also mentioned that Confucian values established the expectation for emperors to keep taxes low, administer justice, and provide for the material needs of the people.

Bingham

9/5/2016 03:17:59 pm

Are you guys looking at those rhetorical questions embedded in the text, and then writing down the answers. I think that is important.

Eliza Pillsbury

9/5/2016 03:49:28 pm

Okay, here is the first instance I noticed of rhetorical questions. In the chapter introduction, he shoots off a string of them: "Why did these traditions all emerge at roughly the same time?...What is the relationship between ideas and the circumstances in which they arrive? Are ideas generated by particular political, social, and economic conditions? Or are they the product of creative human imagination independent of the material environment? Or do they derive from some combination of the two?" I found the first question to be the most concrete, while the rest offered speculation about the first. Do y'all agree? These questions seem to be addressed throughout the chapter.

Why did these traditions all emerge at roughly the same time?
- iron-age technology
- more productive economies
- more deadly warfare
- urbanization
- increased trade
- growing importance of merchant classes
- emergence of new states and empires
- new interactions between empires

Do you see anymore answers to this question elsewhere in the chapter? (Also, if you see anymore rhetorical questions, post them here!!)

Amy Vaughan

9/5/2016 04:14:26 pm

I'll just add that all of the societies were at about the same place politically, socially, and economically, so they were all experiencing the factors you listed at around the same time. These factors were cause for disruption in such societies. Such disruption led people to question their lifestyles and brainstorm new and improved ways of living and cultural organization. In that way, disruption was the base cause of new religions and philosophies, and variation per location was built off of such a base.

Bingham

9/6/2016 03:55:15 am

This is interesting guys. Eliza, you did a great job of being descriptive of the state of things as these new ideas emerged. Amy, you carried that forward to the cause/effect aspect implied by the question. Teamwork, it's a beautiful thing!

Amy Vaughan

9/7/2016 06:39:15 pm

We could even include examples of instances where similar themes occurred in different religions (Ex: Zoroastrianism-> Judaism-> Christianity and Islam, OR the similarities between Buddhism and Christianity)

Sofia Puccio

9/5/2016 04:36:25 pm

So I attempted to create my own margin question (MQ 5.5???)
How did Buddhism initially gain traction in India?

-Buddhism appealed to many women because of the relative freedom Buddhist nuns enjoyed. They could largely run their own affairs without their "crooked husbands" getting in the way of achieving nirvana (that was a quote I found amusing)
-Availability of its teachings in the local language made it more accessible
-Buddhism challenged the inequalities of the caste system, making it appealing to those of a lower caste
-Its teachings could be linked to local traditions
-Found state support under Ashoka's rule

Eliza Pillsbury

9/5/2016 07:01:53 pm

This is fantastic!!! I found while looking at Margin Question 5 that many of the ways Buddhism "challenged" Hinduism were what made it so popular/more accessible. A lot of those distinguishing features are reflected here in your answer.

Amy Vaughan

9/5/2016 05:38:58 pm

MQ4: In what ways did the religious traditions of South Asia change over the centuries?).
Hinduism is a term that was made to refer to the many cultural traditions of India. Hindu religious traditions started as elaborate rituals written about in the Vedas, then transformed to more introspective thinking as written in the Upanishads. Perhaps in a response to the challenge of Buddhism, religious traditions changed again. This revived Hinduism (written about in the Mahabharata and Ramayana) suggested that worldly actions and obedient performance of caste duties could provide a path to enlightenment. This new form of Hinduism was more accessible to the public and therefore more popular.

I only addressed changes in Hinduism for this question. Should I also include Buddhism?

Yasmeen Gaber

9/5/2016 06:10:40 pm

Because of the way the question is placed, I don't think you have to, but I would talk about Buddhism, Theravada vs. Mahayana, and its diffusion throughout Asia because Buddhism in India kind of ends up rolled into Hinduism (the Buddha becomes a ninth incarnation of Vishnu) and there is, of course, a comparison to be made about the influence of Hinduism on Buddhism (ascetic Hindus, as a subsect, attempted to reach moksha through deprivation, which is how early Buddhists attempted to reach nirvana).

Eliza Pillsbury

9/5/2016 07:03:48 pm

I definitely included Buddhism in my answer. It emerged in two different forms not long after Hinduism, and its growth provoked the new form of "popular Hinduism" that you addressed

Yasmeen Gaber

9/5/2016 06:15:35 pm

MQ3: How did the Daoist outlook differ from that of Confucianism?

Daoism focused on withdrawal into nature, while Confucianism focused on human relationships and advocated morality while Daoism deemed it pointless, the same to be said of education and government and Daosim had gender equality while Confucianism was patriarchal. Additionally, Daoism carried spiritual aspects with the worship of the dao, whereas Confucianism was noted for its secular approach.

Anything I'm missing? Let me know!

Eliza Pillsbury

9/5/2016 07:07:10 pm

MQ6. What is the difference between the Theravada and Mahayana expressions of Buddhism?

Theravada was more psychological than religious and did not call Buddha a god. Humans were responsible for reaching nirvana without divine help. Mahayana preached a more popular message, providing assistance through bodhisattavas, declaring the Buddha a divine being, and allowing religious merit to be earned through acts of devotion. This allowed more people to reach enlightenment.

I tried to keep this answer succinct, but I am still learning how to do this successfully. Is there anything I should leave out/add? Thanks for the input

Grant Cambron

9/5/2016 07:37:29 pm

I want to say how interested I am in the dynamic of Confucianism and Daoism. It really stuck out to me how a scholar/politician could practice the governing benefits of Confucianism in office, yet go back home and practice the more natural approach to life with Daoism. In a world surrounded by intolerance of different teachings, it really blew my mind to see two opposing systems like that coexist like it did.

Grant Cambron

9/5/2016 07:47:01 pm

I also find it interesting how neither Buddha nor Jesus wanted their own religion. They just wanted to "enlighten" the people around them. This just shows how noble these people were. They were just kind-hearted people who wanted to change peoples' lives.

Eliza Pillsbury

9/6/2016 03:35:57 pm

Hello! Based on our review of the last test, Mr. Bingham is looking for answers that may more closely resemble inferences than quotations, while still staying succinct. With that in mind, how does my answer for MQ7 sound? I would love feedback

MQ7. What new emphases characterized Hinduism as it responded to the challenge of Buddhism?

Responding to the more accessible Buddhist challenge, "popular Hinduism" emphasized that there was more than one path to liberation, such as detached performance of caste duties. Hinduism also assimilated competing religious traditions such as Buddhism and the bhakti movement; their emphasis on tolerance allowed them to spread widely.

Bingham

9/7/2016 04:52:55 am

This post inspires me on a couple of levels. While I certainly am not looking for quotes (more like interpretations of what you've read), inferences are often the analytical part of your answer - maybe the last point or two in your answer. Remember, it's all there in Strayer, but it may not be overtly stated. Read deep! I want you guys thinking, not simply regurgitating Strayer.

And Indian assimilation. This is an admirable quality of Indian society we should notice. Rather than forcefull resistance, India often sees the value of a good idea (I.e. Buddhism) and accommodates and incorporates. Smart.

Eliza Pillsbury

9/6/2016 04:02:11 pm

MQ10. What are the distinctive features of the Greek intellectual tradition?

Greek rationalism abandoned Greek mythology in favor of confidence in human reason. Through questioning of received wisdom, Greek thinkers offered a rational and non-religious explanation of the material world.

Short and sweet! Am I missing anything important? I am trying to get better at this whole concise thing ;)

Amy Vaughan

9/6/2016 06:36:36 pm

I might also add that their methods of questioning were not only applied to explanation of the "material world" (which I tend to think of as maths and sciences), but also to ethics and government (the humanities side of things). Do you agree?

Eliza Pillsbury

9/6/2016 04:06:07 pm

Also, here is another subtly worded rhetorical question I found.

Why did Greek thought evolve in such a distinctive manner?
- diversity/incoherence of Greek mythology presented intellectuals with the challenge of bringing order to their understanding of the world
- geographic position on periphery of great civilizations (Mesopotamia, Egypt, Persia) offered intellectual stimulation and inspiration
- growing importance of Greek law suggested that a similar order should be involved in understanding of the natural world

What do y'all think?

Eliza Pillsbury

9/6/2016 04:12:55 pm

I noticed this goes back to Amy's comment on the first rhetorical question. It seems there is a theme: all of these cultural and religious traditions emerged from a search for order in an increasingly complex society.

Amy Vaughan

9/6/2016 04:41:24 pm

Thinking back to the 2nd chapter, this was also one of the reasons for the institution of political/administrative systems in early human societies. What is it with humans and the need to grasp for order?

Bingham

9/7/2016 04:57:39 am

Yeeeeesssss! Look at you guys, seeing themes and broad trends. This makes me happy!

Allison Lee

9/6/2016 05:28:20 pm

Strayer does not mention this, and I may be incorrect, Maybe the values of the Greek culture leaned towards independent thought, as the semi-democracy may suggest. The idea that everyone has a "voice" in society, may bring people to develop unconventional thoughts and be more careful about what they believe that others tell them.

Amy Vaughan

9/6/2016 06:40:54 pm

I find this analysis very interesting- that the system of traditions for Greece was influenced by pro-independence political structure (which in turn was influenced by Greece's separated physical geography).

Cassie Barham

9/7/2016 02:32:22 pm

Oh gosh, I just realized that you posted on this like an hour before me, and I overlooked it! I must not have refreshed before posting, but either way I'm glad to see that the connections we're making are similar.

Eliza Pillsbury

9/6/2016 04:13:49 pm

All in favor of naming the rhetorical questions RQs? To follow the trend of MQ, BPQ...

Cassie Barham

9/6/2016 04:43:25 pm

Aye!

Sofia Puccio

9/6/2016 05:04:11 pm

So since Mr. Bingham mentioned that a question about similarities between the Buddha and Jesus is coming up on the next test...I've come up with around 13 so far but I'm missing one. Maybe you guys have some ideas?

both Jesus and the Buddha...
1. had a dramatic impact on world history
2. became spiritual seekers/mystics
3. claimed to have experienced another level of reality
4. were wisdom teachers- challenged conventional wisdom of their times
5. urged renunciation (rejection) of wealth
6. emphasized the importance of love or compassion
7. called for personal transformation of their followers
8. attracted a growing band of followers
9. never intended to found a new religion
10. proclaimed messages to a wider and more inclusive audience than the religion they stemmed from (Hinduism and Judaism)
11. both were transformed by their followers into gods
12. never claimed divine status
13. became the base of the two great universal religions
14. ?

Allison Lee

9/6/2016 05:18:10 pm

Perhaps, one similarity (Which you touched on), was that they both had roots in a different religion, for Jesus, Judaism, and for Siddhartha Gautama, Hinduism.

Eliza Pillsbury

9/6/2016 05:21:32 pm

I guess my biggest question for this is whether we need to think broader and break down the points Strayer gives us, like Sofia did for numbers eleven and twelve, for example. Or whether we should make more specific inferences to complete our 14 points.

Eliza Pillsbury

9/6/2016 05:18:33 pm

I think this is a great conversation to start on here. I have some answers that I don't see in your list (and vice versa). Here's my list so far:

1. spiritual seekers
2. personal authenticity attracted band of followers
3. challenged conventional values
4. urged renunciation of wealth
5. emphasized importance of love and compassion
6. called for personal transformation of their followers
7. no intention to found new religion
8. deification- transformed by followers into gods
9. preached to a more inclusive audience

Are your first and thirteenth points specific enough? Could you consolidate your second and third points into a single point? Same for point eleven and twelve? I don't have answers for any of those questions, just some things to think about as we create a list! Thank you for getting this started!!!

Sofia Puccio

9/6/2016 05:25:34 pm

Yes, I definitely see what you mean. I think I was too concerned with getting as many different points as possible, haha! I also like how you consolidated yours more, I will try that too.

Eliza Pillsbury

9/6/2016 05:32:41 pm

Also, I had a longer list of both similarities and differences... Strayer uses the word "comparisons" but Bingham mentioned specifically similarities. Are y'all making a T chart or two separate lists or just one...?

Cassie Barham

9/6/2016 05:46:53 pm

I'm most likely doing a Venn Diagram for this one--I'll have a visual of the similarities and differences in relation to each other

Bingham

9/7/2016 04:25:43 pm

Okay, this is tough, so I'm going to reward those of you working the forum. Shhhh. Don't post this to FaceBook.

Jesus & the Buddha:
Compare the lives and teachings of Jesus and the Buddha. In what different ways did the two religions evolve after the deaths of their founders?
1. Their backgrounds were very different. Jesus was a rural or small-town worker from a distinctly lower-class family, while Gautama was born into a ruling family and was surrounded by luxury.
2. Both became spiritual seekers, mystics in their own traditions, who claimed to have personally experienced another level of reality. Those powerful religious experiences provided the motivation for their life’s work and the personal authenticity that attracted their growing band of followers.
3. Both were “wisdom teachers,” challenging the conventional values of their time, urging the renunciation of wealth, and emphasizing the supreme importance of love or compassion as the basis for a moral life.
4. Both called for the personal transformation of their followers.
5. Jesus inherited from his Jewish tradition an intense devotion to a single personal deity with whom he was on intimate terms. According to the New Testament, the miracles Jesus performed reflected the power of God available to him as a result of that relationship.
6. The Buddha’s original message largely ignored the supernatural, involved no miracles, and taught a path of intense self-effort aimed at ethical living and “mindfulness” as a means of ending suffering.
7. Jesus’ teachings had a sharper social and more political edge than those of the Buddha.
8. Jesus’ public life was very brief, probably less than three years compared to over forty years for the Buddha.
9. Neither Jesus nor the Buddha probably planned to found new religions.
10. Both the Buddha’s and Jesus’ messages emerged soon after their deaths as separate religions proclaimed to much wider and more inclusive audiences.
11. Both the Buddha and Jesus were transformed from teachers into gods by their followers.
12. The Christian faith was ultimately promoted as the single legal faith in the Roman Empire. Buddhism, while supported by some rulers, was never promoted to the exclusion of other faiths in India.
13. Both Buddhist and Christian followers clashed over interpretation of their respective founder’s teachings.
14. However, Buddhist disagreements generally lacked the clear-cut distinctions defined by “right” and “wrong” that Christian disagreements developed.

Amy Vaughan

9/6/2016 05:43:48 pm

Here are some others that I came up with:
-Both of their respective religions took off after their deaths
-Both of their teachings appealed to women and the lower class
-Neither wrote their own literature, rather their followers compiled/recorded their teachings
-Both became viewed as supernatural beings that could help one's eventual ascension into heaven

Heidi

9/6/2016 08:25:26 pm

What about how differences in understanding emerged? As Buddhism spread, people began to question how nirvana could be achieved, or how to cross the river to the far shore of enlightenment. This led to differences like Theravada and Mahayana. In Christianity, differences in Jesus (was he human, divine, or both?), his relationship to God (equal or inferior?), and the concept of the Trinity (God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) emerged. There were different positions like orthodox, Monophysite, and Nestorianism.

Bingham

9/7/2016 05:04:48 am

Good stuff Amy.

Bingham

9/7/2016 05:06:58 am

Heidi, good thinking, but you are going a bit too far down the road for those to be meaningful answers to the comparison.

Bingham

9/7/2016 05:02:25 am

Sofia, good work, but #1 is a bit too broad and obvious; not specific - you know, vague?

Cassie Barham

9/6/2016 05:08:19 pm

This time around, I've tried coming up with my own questions (I think it was Amy who mentioned last time that she was doing this? That's where I got the idea.), and there are some I might post on here to run by y'all, this being one of them.

Why were Greek intellectuals so willing to abandon the mythological framework of Greece?

-Diversity and disjointedness of Greek religious mythology called for a means of bringing order to their understanding of the world
-Greece's frontier geographical position presented opportunity of intellectual interaction with Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Persia
-Growing role of law in Athens possibly suggested a correlating regularity to the natural order

Eliza Pillsbury

9/6/2016 05:13:18 pm

These insights look similar to the answers to a rhetorical question Strayer poses at the introduction of "The Search for a Rational Order"! So you and Strayer are on the same page!

Cassie Barham

9/6/2016 05:24:32 pm

I'm pretty sure I pulled this right from that section, so I doubt the correlation is accidental. I did multiple questions for each section, and the main goal of them was to take conclusive statements/reasoning Strayer provides or alludes to and to either analyze them or reorganize them in a way that points out their significance. As I'm reviewing, I seem to be making more connections with the text, so hopefully this will prove fruitful!

Cassie Barham

9/6/2016 05:15:06 pm

Another general question of mine:

What accounted for the lack of unity in the emerging Christian movement?

-Immense geographical reach meant extreme diversity
-Political clashing led to fragmentation
-Doctrinal disagreements (particularly on the nature of Jesus)
divided churches under Christianity

Sofia Puccio

9/6/2016 05:29:44 pm

I like this question. Maybe you could elaborate on the first point to include cultural aspects such as language under "diversity?" I'm sure the translating of Christian texts into various local languages played a part in its lack of unity/consistency.

Cassie Barham

9/6/2016 05:35:30 pm

I think you're totally right. Language would have played a crucial role.

Cassie Barham

9/6/2016 05:34:45 pm

Last MQ: In what ways was Christianity transformed in the five centuries following the death of Jesus?

-Transition towards hierarch
-Spread of religion: Religion found converts from Spain to NE Africa, Central Asia, and India; Eventually took root in Europe and Russia-->beginnings as small Jewish sect to tradition inclusive of non-Jews
-Validation of religion from states: Rome, Axum, and Armenia endorsed Christianity
-Transition from personal teachings to expansive religious tradition--> transition of Jesus from human teacher to divine figurehead

Cassie Barham

9/6/2016 05:36:50 pm

*hierarchy. Sorry!

Cassie Barham

9/6/2016 05:43:55 pm

MQ #5: In what ways did Buddhism reflect Hindu traditions, and in what ways did it challenge them?

Buddhism reflecting Hinduism:
-concept that ordinary life is an illusion
-concept of karma
-goal of overcoming demands of ego
-practice of meditation
-hope for final release from rebirth

Buddhism challenging Hinduism:
-rejection of religious authority of Brahmins
-No interest in philosophical speculation (such as the creation of the world or nature of gods)
-rejection of caste-based inequalities of Hinduism through pronouncement that neither caste position nor gender is a barrier to enlightenment

Yasmeen Gbaer

9/6/2016 06:12:01 pm

BQ1: Is a secular outlook on the world an essentially modern phenomenon, or does it have precedents in the second-wave era?

Second-wave examples:

-Confucianism: did not deny the existence of the supernatural, but did not incorporate these elements into the philosophy-->Chinese culture w/o supernatural-->modern secular China

-Theravada Buddhism: lacked the belief in a supernatural being and believed the Buddha to be a wise teacher rather than a deity

-Greek rationalism: Greek rationalists (Socrates, Pythagoras and Hippocrates, to name a few) believed that the world was governed by natural laws and that humans could rationalize it--->European Scientific Revolution and scientific advancement in the West/Middle East--> deeper understanding of the natural world-->modern secularism

Anything/any detail I'm missing? Let me know!

Amy Vaughan

9/6/2016 08:31:31 pm

(Not an official margin question): What was the legacy of Greek rationalism?

-Greek way of thinking was held in high esteem during the Roman Empire, when many Romans sent their children to Greek academies.
- Christian theology was explained in terms of Greek philosophical concepts, esp. those of Plato (according to Google, the first translation of the Bible was from Hebrew to Greek)
- Preservation of Greek texts in the Byzantine Empire but not in post-Roman Europe
- impacted Muslim thinking and scientific/mathematical developments (many Greek works were translated into Arabic, which was how they were rediscovered in Europe)
-impact on "Western" Civilization (ex: European Scientific Revolution).

Anything else to add?

Cassie Barham

9/7/2016 03:01:46 pm

What is the historical significance of religion? (Not a margin question, but Strayer talks about this in the Reflections section)

-formulated many peoples' understandings and meanings of the world
-Vindicated immense social inequalities and oppression of human civilizations
-Empowered humans' endurance through sufferings in life
-Sometimes stimulated reform or rebellion
-Drove a lot humankind's efforts to grasp mysteries of worlds

Cassie Barham

9/7/2016 03:58:16 pm

When Strayer talks about monotheism, he calls it "a radical cultural innovation." He then continues to bring up the possibility of an open and universal quality to it but also the possibility of intolerance. It seemed a significant statement, so I formulated a question around it and attempted to answer it based on what follows in the text.

In what way could monotheism generate an all-inclusive faith, and in what ways could it breed exclusivity and intolerance?

Openness:
-Endeavors to align humanity with a manifestation of goodness and virtue-->special relationship of humankind with divine figurehead that values moral righteousness over sacrifices and ritual
-Support of human free will (often expressed in importance of the decision to align with goodness)
-Belief in final defeat of evil
-Significance of resurrected bodies in afterlife as an expression of reward for devotion and aligning with goodness
-(Especially Christianity) appeal to those with less privilege (women, lower class) due to values of equality and love

Intolerance:
-Forceful limitations on interpretation of the divine (Jewish people stifled in their admiration of gods of neighboring traditions, Christian councils determining the interpretation of Jesus)
-Rise of hierarchy in churches-->less egalitarian in practice than theory (for example, the stifling of the participation of women in Christianity)

These were very tricky to pick out, so there's quite a bit of room for error and interpretation. What do y'all make of this?

Bingham

9/7/2016 04:16:46 pm

Wow Cassie, super analysis! Keep thinking this way.

Cassie Barham

9/7/2016 04:16:15 pm

This was a Summing Up So Far question:

How did the evolution of cultural traditions in India and China differ during the era of second-wave civilizations?

The cultural traditions in India embraced its diversity as a means of organization, and they focused on religions in relation to each other; Hinduism prevailed as primary religious tradition until the rise of (mostly non-divine) Buddhism. In response to this competition, Hinduism became less ritualistic and eventually absorbed Buddhism within India altogether. Meanwhile, a more supernatural form of Buddhism evolved.

In China, the significant cultural traditions arose as responses to the chaotic condition of the warring states period. Legalism, Confucianism, and Daoism were all much more concerned with human nature and aligning Chinese society (Legalism through strict rewards and punishment system, Confucianism through clear human relationships, and Daoism through withdrawal from society.) Legalism became seen as largely ineffective, whereas Confucianism and Doaism developed a relationship of balance.

Honestly, I struggled with this one. It's one thing to compare cultural traditions, but the comparison of the evolution of these traditions is a key distinction. I'm going to spend more time on this one, but I wanted to go ahead and bring it up so as to start a discussion where y'all could provide some insight.

Amy Vaughan

9/7/2016 05:10:16 pm

For this question, I talked about how the Chinese traditions all coexisted (except for Legalism, associated with the harsh Qin dynasty), and though they were distinctly different, it was not looked down upon to dabble in many.
However, in India, there was one overencompassing title for all Indian traditions- Hinduism. Hinduism absorbed the characteristics of many religions, and while Buddhism did start out as a distinct and separate religion, it too was eventually absorbed into Hinduism.
Also, Cassie, would you explain what you meant when you said that India embraced its diversity for order? Thanks!

Cassie Barham

9/7/2016 06:02:31 pm

I just meant to tie it back to India being diverse and China involving assimilation. The expression of Hinduism throughout India was diverse, and this was in no way a hindrance to order in India.

I like your comparison of multiple coexisting, structured systems in China as opposed to one central, variegated one in India (save for the time when Buddhism held its own in India).

As far as comparing the evolution of those traditions, would you just elaborate on the history of them in their respective regions? Or are there key distinctions in their transitions that you're identifying. I pretty much did the first, but I feel there's more analytical potential in the latter.

Thanks for your input; I hope I'm making sense :)

Yasmeen Gaber

9/7/2016 06:40:10 pm

MQ12: In what ways was Christianity transformed in the five centuries following the death of Jesus?

-diffused throughout Afro-Eurasia from Palestine (large followings in Egypt, Axum, Rome and Armenia)
-more organized hierarchy due to widespread nature and popularity as a religion
-church became patriarchal--a more organized hierarchy vs. community meant women were excluded from positions in the church community
-divide regarding the religion itself (what should and should not be in the Bible, the concept of the Trinity, the status of Jesus as a divine figure or a human)
-separation into orthodox vs. unorthodox based on theological opinon
-further separation of orthodox into Roman Catholicism (lead by the Roman Emperor i.e. Pope) and the Eastern Orthodox
-diverse, fragmented demography due to widespread reach across Afro-Eurasia

What am I missing? Let me know!

Air'eanna Page-Wilson

9/7/2016 06:44:41 pm

I was also looking at some of the differences between Buddha and Jesus and I have come of with the following list ....

1. To Buddha many paths to eliminating the self were beneficial. Jesus claimed the only way to God was through him./

2.Jesus taught dualism, he believed in the reality of good vs. evil, virtue vs. sin, and heaven vs. hell. Buddha taught that any appearance of dualism is an illusion, and is not part of ultimate reality, which he claimed had only one nature.

3.Buddha taught that truth lies within each person, while Jesus claimed that he was the truth. Jesus also believed that, since the Fall in the Garden of Eden, every person has a strongly ingrained lower nature that rebels against God and seeks its own way.

4.Buddha introduced a method for attaining enlightenment, by systematic, persistent effort. Jesus offered a personal relationship with himself, through faith in him, apart from works.

5.Buddha claimed the highest goal was the elimination of suffering, while Jesus saw the highest goal as developing a love relationship with God and other people

Yasmeen Gaber

9/7/2016 06:54:20 pm

Those are all great comparisons! However, they sound a little bit more like comparisons of the religions and ideological doctrines of Christianity and Buddhism rather than their founders. I think what Bingham was going for in the question of comparing Jesus and the Buddha was to scope out the historical parallelism of the development of these religions through a lens which had been zoomed in on the founders. You should certainly use everything you have there (good stuff!), but I would gear it a little more towards the lives of the founders and how that impacted the evolution of the religion, not just in theology, but also in politics. I hope that helps!

Yasmeen Gaber

9/7/2016 07:27:22 pm

In the context of the question Bingham posted above, all of the stuff you listed is incredibly useful, but you should also look into the personal aspects of the leaders (beautifully detailed by both Strayer and Bingham).

Ashi Porter

9/7/2016 10:56:40 pm

It's midnight and I feel so alive so I decided to answer MQ5 since I noticed that no one as answered it yet.

MQ5: In what ways did Buddhism reflect Hindu traditions, an in what ways did it challenge them?
- The idea that ordinary life is an illusion
-The concepts of karma and rebirth
- The goal of overcoming the incessant demands of the ego
-The practice of meditation
-The hope for final release from the cycle of rebirth
However,
-Buddhism rejected the religious authority of the Brahmins, Buddha ridiculed the rituals and sacrifices as irrelevant to the hard work of dealing with one's suffering

I wanted to also point out that particularly in Buddhism, not only do you have to form your morals around the idea of good karma and the release of the cycle of birth, but you also have to do the work and use your prior suffering to achieve happiness, instead of taking the easy way out through rituals and sacrifices! Sound familiar? *cough, WHAP, cough*

Bingham

Welcome class of 2019. Some years students collaborate in this space effectively, some years not so much. One thing I know, collaboration significantly enhances learning. If you want access to my thoughts, this is the collaboration space to use. Most people propose an answer to margin questions, big picture question, or anything else related to managing Strayer. Other people can then comment leading to a stronger answer. I'll keep an eye on these pages, and pop in when I think you need me.

Strayer 4, Eurasian Cultural Developments

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