China's "long shadow" Strayer 9

18/10/2013

This is certainly one of the most interesting periods in Chinese history for me. Tang represents a true golden age with an explosion of art, literature, cuisine and science (although that word wasn't used yet).

Let me lead you off...
In what ways did Tang and Song dynasty China resemble the classical Han dynasty period, and in what ways had China changed?

•     Tang and Song dynasty China resembled the Han dynasty period in a number of ways, including the maintenance of the imperial political system, and the importance of a professional bureaucracy formally trained and subject to competitive exams.

      • Another similarity was a focus on establishing a dominant political position in East Asia that was recognized by China’s neighbors; an interest in and support for long-distance trade; and the continued importance of the Confucian tradition in elite society.

      • China also experienced important changes following the Han dynasty period, including tighter unification of northern and southern China through a vast waterway system; the long-term migration of Chinese populations south into the Yangzi River valley after 220 c.e.; and an economic revolution that made it the richest empire on earth.

      • There was rapid population growth, from 50 million to 60 million people during the Tang dynasty to 120 million people by 1200, which was spurred in part by a remarkable growth in agricultural production.

      • Also, the economy of China became the most highly commercialized in the world and became more active in long-distance trade than during the Han dynasty.

60 Comments

Jessie DeArman

18/10/2013 11:47:02

For Margin Question #1, "Why were the centuries of the Tang and Song dynasties in China sometimes referred to as a 'golden age'", a lot of details were provided in the following paragraphs pertaining to this answer, so I found that organizing them into some of the SPICE themes helped to solidify the details.

Cultural:
-set standards in excellence of poetry, landscape painting, and ceramics.
-explosion of scholarship= Neo-Confucianism

Political
-ordered bureaucratic state structure
-development of more elaborate examination system

Economic
-adoption of Vietnamese rice= rapid population growth
-urbanization; development of cities that accommodated over 100,000 people and were full of specialized markets and attractions
-iron industry
-high commercialization; concept of producing for the market rather than for local needs, introduction of paper money and financial instruments

Interactions/ Environment:
-technological innovations; inventions in printing leading to the production of books, inventions pertaining to navigation and ship building, gunpowder
-canal system; form of cheap transportation, bound country economically

I know I didn't elaborate on everything, but I hope this is helpful!

Bingham

18/10/2013 13:21:21

I like your approach to this question Jessie. Well done!

Victoria Cashman

19/10/2013 06:53:41

"In what ways did women's lives change during the Tang and Dong Dynasties?"

-reviving Confucianism and economic growth tightened restrictions on women
-this was shown mostly through the binding of women's feet, as it became associated with delicacy and beauty and kept them confined to the home
-economic growth led to the decline of women in textiles, in part because these factories were run by men
-Due to this, other opportunities emerged for women such as: owning restaurants and becoming dressmakers
-the demand for entertainers and prostitutes also increased as elite families dominated Chinese society and this kept wives submissive to their husbands
-With these changes, women also acquired more property rights in dowries and were able to inherit land from their family members
-lower ranking officials called for women to be educated, so they could raise their sons and have more money

I hope I covered it all. I tried to leave out details and to put it in my own words, so I understand it

Victoria Cashman

19/10/2013 06:54:28

*Song

Bingham

19/10/2013 07:08:54

Yeah Victoria, in your own words is best. One thing on this one though, I think to mention that women during the Tang enjoyed more social life than in the Classical Han era. This was due to exposure to peoples from the steppes, where women had less restricted lives.

Paris Bezanis

21/10/2013 13:46:46

I have one question though. How did the growing prominence of elite families funnel larger numbers of women into roles of concubines, etc. ?

Bingham

19/10/2013 07:12:06

I want to get to this big picture before I forget...
In what different ways did nearby peoples experience their giant Chinese neighbor, and how did they respond to it?

-China’s neighbors did not experience China in one sort of universal way, but generally nearby peoples experienced their Chinese neighbor as a trade partner, cultural influence, and political influence. China could also be a military threat at times.
-Some neighbors, such as Korea and Vietnam, experienced China as a military conqueror; others, such as the pastoral peoples to the north of China, were at different times both the conquerors and rulers of parts of China and subject to attack by the Chinese. Japan had no military conflict with China.
-In their response to China, neighbors such as Korea and Vietnam, and sometimes the pastoral peoples and Japan as well, participated in the tribute system promoted by China.
-Some, such as Japan, voluntarily adopted Chinese intellectual, cultural, and religious traditions. Other neighbors, such as Vietnam, both willingly adopted some Chinese intellectual, cultural, and religious traditions and had others imposed upon them while under Chinese rule.
-Responses to Chinese influence varied from outright rebellion in Vietnam under the Trung sisters to the active embrace of Chinese influence by the Japanese under Shotoku Taishi.

Victoria Cashman

19/10/2013 08:21:45

To me, the next two margin questions seemed to overlap quite a bit. Here's my attempt:

"How did the Chinese and their nomadic
neighbors to the north view each other?"

The nomads believed the Chinese were a threat, as they pushed their military into nomadic lands, created the Great Wall, and were very hostile in allowing the nomads access to Chinese trade.

The Chinese dealt with the nomads out of need. They acquired horses from the nomads and the nomads controlled portions of the Silk Road that brought goods into China. This next part seems to also fit the question asking about the assumptions that led to the founding of the tribute system. The Chinese thought themselves superior to the barbaric peoples outside of their state. They represented civilization, while other cultures, such as the nomads, were primitive. The nomads moved about and brought war on the Chinese. Therefore, the Chinese believed the nomads were a threat to their advanced system.

This next part only refers to the margin question about the assumptions beneath the tribute system. The Chinese only interacted with the nomads and other "barbaric" societies through a system where the others admitted that they were inferior to the Chinese. This was known as the "tribute system." Foreigners went to the Chinese emperor and performed rituals and gave a tribute to the emperor. In exchange, the foreigners were granted access to the Chinese markets.

Paris Bezanis

20/10/2013 05:32:08

What would be the modern equivalent of the Chinese Censorate? FBI? Or was it a more "gentle" bureaucratic entity.

Bingham

20/10/2013 07:01:23

I'd like to think there isn't an equivalent. These are people making sure people aren't saying negative things about the government, or criticism of Confusion ideals.

Paris Bezanis

21/10/2013 13:32:09

As the name implies, a censor department?

Emily Soice link

22/10/2013 14:35:51

Unlike the US govt, Han did not have a system of checks and balances. Instead they had the Censorate just keep an eye on ALL of the govt. That's what I compared it to

Alex Rodriguez

20/10/2013 05:36:27

What exactly do the "six major ministries" mean? I understand that they are personnel, finance, rites, army, justice, and public works, but what exactly does that apply to? Does it mean that was the only work you could do, or the "major" or common work forces to proceed?

Bingham

20/10/2013 07:03:21

No, those are the beauracracy of the government. The jobs that are earned through the examination system.

Alex Rodriguez

20/10/2013 07:15:03

Ohh
Ok thank you

Kathryn King

20/10/2013 08:49:29

Although the Censorate can't be compared to the FBI, could it be compared to the balance of powers idea in U.S. history?

Kathryn King

20/10/2013 09:50:07

Also, why was foot binding so popular in the Tang dynasty if the women had so much more freedom? Was it just because it was the socially "acceptable" thing to do?

Bingham

20/10/2013 10:55:45

Well keep in mind, societies are complex. Everyone doesn't do or think the same thing, just like in our own American society today. While northern Tang women were seeing a social life, and all Tang women were gaining civil rights, there was at the same time this notion of smallness = beauty, mainly in the upper classes. It's weird from our point of view, but think of all the contradictory things in our own lives.

Kathryn King

20/10/2013 10:20:37

Sorry, one last thing. Is there any specific reason that Strayer focuses mainly on the Song dynasty and women compared to the Tang dynasty and women? When I made my map, the Tang had only 2 subheadings, but the Song had 7.

Bingham

20/10/2013 10:59:41

Again, these are editorial choices an author/historian must make. Strayer clearly sees the Imortant Song developments as more numerous than those in the Tang. We can and should trust Strayer in this regard. He's been right in tune with college board all the way.

Sam Molina

20/10/2013 16:00:00

Thought I'd fit in some Strayer before crashing for the night:

"How did the tribute system in practice differ from the ideal Chinese understanding of its operation?"

-Chinese viewed themselves as "superior" to barbarians, whereas in reality barbarians were equal (at least) in power and weren't small societies but large and powerful empires.
-Many Chinese scholars saw China as self-sufficient, but the Chinese needed products of the nomads such as horses, skins, furs, and control of the Silk Road trading system.
-In theory, Chinese had control over who to trade with and what to trade. In practice, Chinese were forced to give nomads large quantities of "gifts" annually to prevent nomadic raids and attacks on China, taking from them the freedom to dictate trading terms.
-Chinese had the free will to permit nomadic access to China's wealth and wisdom in theory, but nomads almost forced them from China by requiring goods as pay for protection. Again, loss of freedom of dictating trade.
These are what I got, any additions/corrections/comments are welcome.

Kyana Washington

21/10/2013 08:28:58

Margin Question- 'In what ways did China and the nomads influnce each other?'

China influenced the nomads during periods of nomad rule in northern China. Northern nomads adopted Chinese clothing, language, Buddhism and Daoism. Nomads also married Chinese which lead to the founders of the Sui and Tang dynasties being mixed between the two ancestries.

Northern Nomads influenced China in fighting styles, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Manichaeism, and other forms of culture. The adoption of Nomad culture was often criticized by traditional southern Chinese.

This me paraphrasing, additions and comments appreciated:)

Kyana Washington

21/10/2013 11:34:17

I'll go ahead and attempt another...fingers crossed.
'In what different ways did Korea, Vietnam and Japan experience and respond to Chinese influence?'

Korea was located northeast to China much like Japan. Early Koreans experienced Chinese conquest during the Han dynasty before gaining independence after the dynasty's fall. After gaining it's independence, China and Korea were rivals except when advantageous, like having a common enemy. Korea's independence didn't stop it form being an active participant in the tribute system. In addition to adopting Buddhism and Confucianism, Korea adopted state structure, capital structure, and a strong patriarchy. Korea also adopted the examination system however, the Korean version contained less social mobility.

Vietnam was a victim of Chinese conquest for 1,000 years, much longer than Korea. The Chinese viewed Vietnamese and 'southern barbarians' which stimulated periodic rebellions. Like Korea, Vietnam adopted Chinese state structure, capital structure, and religions. Vietnam also embraced the mandate of heaven, emperors, and an identical examination system. Despite the many cultural similarities, Vietnam held a greater role for women in society. Examples of this loose patriarchy were the Trung sisters, who led a rebellion against China and a female Buddha. Also like Korea, Vietnam participated in the tribute system.

Like Korea, Japan was located northeast of China but never conquered due to separation by sea. Due to this Japan's adoption of Buddhism, Confucianism, state structure, and capital structure, was completely voluntary and stimulated by trips to China encouraged by the elite. Japan's patriarchy remained similar to that of the Tang's until the emergence of samurai. Most knowledge of Japanese life comes form female writers. Japan developed their interpretation of Buddhism with native kamis, or spirits. Like Vietnam and Korea, Japan developed a writing similar to Chinese script.

Additions and comments appreciated:))))

Emma Fielding

24/10/2013 13:03:49

Remember that the question is asking for the differences in the experiences.

Emma Fielding

21/10/2013 11:36:43

I'm guessing that making comparisons between the lives of women in the Tang and Song dynasties would pretty helpful when reading through that section of the chapter.

Kyana Washington

21/10/2013 12:25:36

true:)

Emma Fielding

21/10/2013 13:24:38

I found something that makes reading Strayer easier is highlighting his main points in each paragraph, and highlighting his supporting details in a different color. He makes (usually) about 3 or 4 major points in each section.

Bingham

21/10/2013 22:26:02

Yeah Emma, CDs and CMs , or Evidence and Analysis! That technique will improve your writing too. It's a good habit of mind.

Paris Bezanis

21/10/2013 14:32:29

So could it be safe to assert that Chinese influence on the Nomadic peoples was strongest while they ruled over pieces of China itself, where they were most directly immersed and connected with the surrounding culture (along with political and economic incentives) but in terms of its permeating influence China was restricted by the ecological boundary that the
Northern steppes and deserts presented? Vice versa, Nomadic influence was strongest directly after Nomadic rule, and potentially during times of great trade interaction (with interior Asia)?

Paris

21/10/2013 14:34:50

Part of that weak Chinese influence in the North was the constant movement of peoples and the inability to replicate Chinese agricultural practices, which would connect those peoples to China indefinitely.

Paris Bezanis

21/10/2013 14:32:35

Sean Moses

22/10/2013 11:48:09

No matter how much I read and review what Strayer says on it I still do not comprehend what the Tribune System was! It's driving me crazy! Could someone maybe just boil it down into something like: "The Tribune System was . . . ." If you could do that that would be much appreciated.
Thanks

Bingham

22/10/2013 13:18:44

Try this, focus on the "the system" part of the article.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Chinese_tributary_system

Sean Moses

22/10/2013 14:48:16

Ah, awesome! Thanks!

Victoria Cashman

22/10/2013 14:03:19

Maybe this is obvious, but why was Chinese influence on Japan most powerful during the Tang dynasty? What was so attractive about it compared to the Song dynasty?

Sabrii Anderson

22/10/2013 15:02:19

Shotoku Taishi was especially influential in the 6th and 7th centuries for encouraging Chinese customs and models in all mentioned facets/aspects, the calendar, court systems and Chinese Buddhism as such, right at the beginning of the Tang Dynasty. These more voluntary acts of diffusion also had to have outlived him for some time. Not too long afterward, two more capital cities in Japan were modeled after the infamous Chang'an. This period of the continuous adoption of these customs can be gauged from that time to around the 10th century, when that behavior wasn't as prominent, which is partially why they outline it by the Tang dynasty.

I might be missing something. I provided this more as a guiding response, there's most likely more to it.

Bingham

22/10/2013 22:54:28

Yes, and remember, Tang is experiencing a "golden age", an explosion of art, literature, poetry, philosophy...even new foods and preparation. This must have very appealing to Japanese observers who would then be interested in the entire package of Chinese ways.

Emily Soice

22/10/2013 14:40:26

Strayer invites the reader to compare Buddhism in China to Christianity in Europe. Is this something we should pay attention to? It SEEMS important, like the Rome and Han China comparison.

Bingham

22/10/2013 22:56:29

Why yes young Jedi, let the Force flow through you...

Kathryn King

22/10/2013 15:33:32

Why would China give more impressive/higher value gifts back in the tribute system? Didn't it lessen the amount of wealth that China had? Like, if I gave on horse and they gave two in return, wouldn't I have one less horse than I started out with?

Emily Soice

23/10/2013 05:12:53

I think they did it prove that they were wealthier and superior to the vassal states. Like, wow, I only had one horse to give, but the almighty China is wealthy enough to give me two!

Kyana Washington

23/10/2013 09:50:00

Also it added an incentive for submitting to China.

Kyana Washington

23/10/2013 10:34:34

Could someone answer the margin question on page 259?

For some reason I am having trouble with this one...

Bingham

23/10/2013 13:35:53

I have a different edition. What's the question exactly?

Kyana Washington

23/10/2013 13:51:33

In what ways did China participate in the world of Eurasian commerce and exchange, and with what outcomes?

I'm not quite sure what he means by outcomes. Sorry it took so long...chores:(

Bimgham

23/10/2013 14:06:15

Ahhh, interesting, and a pivotal question!

-China actively participated in commerce, with its export products—silk, porcelain, lacquerware, which was in high demand.
-Several Chinese ports became cosmopolitan (history jargon!) centers of commerce and trade and points of contact between Chinese and other Afro-Eurasian cultures.
-The huge size of the Chinese domestic economy provided a ready market for hundreds of commodities from, well, everywhere.
-One key outcome was the diffusion of many Chinese technological innovations, including techniques for producing salt, paper-making, and printing.
-Chinese innovations in explosives, textiles, metallurgy, and naval technologies also often sparked further innovations. For instance, the arrival of gunpowder in Europe spurred the development of cannons. Remember I mentioned that Europeans had the iron casting technology from making church bells that easily translated into cannon making?
-China learned about the cultivation and processing of both cotton and sugar from India and gained access to new, fast-ripening, and drought-resistant strains of rice from Vietnam. (Three crops per season and all that?)
-Outside influences also helped inspire Chinese innovation, such as Buddhism spurring the development of printing.

Make sure you guys look back at the 3rd Wave Societies page to help put things in broad context.

Kyana Washington

23/10/2013 14:11:18

Thanks Bingham!!!!

Kathryn King

23/10/2013 12:48:35

Looking on last year's forum, I saw that you exempt the students that made a 100 on the reading check from taking the chapter 9 test. Is that a possibility for this year? :)

Bingham

23/10/2013 13:33:17

Circumstances were different last year. We did the 20th century first, for example. Better email me about your circumstances. The test on 9 is on.

Kathryn King

23/10/2013 14:25:14

Ok! Just wondering!

Emily Soice

24/10/2013 06:48:34

I was just wondering.... it was the state officials that placed laws against Buddhism, but they kept parts of it in their elite culture of Neo-Confucianism?1? How does that make sense?

Bingham

24/10/2013 08:16:12

Nothing is ever all one thing or the other, especially with something as squishy as people! See my comment to Katheryn above.

Bingham

24/10/2013 07:27:16

So the Junior UP Experience was great, but as you know, I missed 8th period. So here's the deal, and no whining 4th and 1st periods!
I'm going to exempt 8th period from the Strayer 9 test...just 8th. If you are in 8th and you want to take the test, come by sometime Friday, maybe during an art period.
1st & 4th, don't worry, you'll catch your break sometime!

Emma Fielding

24/10/2013 10:59:10

I just died a little inside.

Alex Rodriguez

24/10/2013 13:30:48

At least we get more practice. Because we are studying for the test we learn more and understand more and expand our answers and understandings of the chapter..

Emma Fielding

24/10/2013 13:43:01

I still wished MR. BINGHAM would have been there to have a discussion with the whole class. And maybe answer some questions, or something. I just feel like we didn't get as much done today as we could have. I couldn't even hear what Emily was saying when she was talking about the tribute system. But I'm not complaining, I'm okay, I'm glad we'll gain some knowledge out of this instead of evading it completely.

Emily Soice

24/10/2013 10:09:21

Guys' while you're here, check out WHAP's 3rd Wave Civilization page. It will bee VERY helpful.Thank yooooou Bingham!

Emily Soice

24/10/2013 10:09:32

Guys' while you're here, check out WHAP's 3rd Wave Civilization page. It will bee VERY helpful.Thank yooooou Bingham!

Emily Soice

24/10/2013 10:09:52

Guys' while you're here, check out WHAP's 3rd Wave Civilization page. It will be VERY helpful.Thank yooooou Bingham!

Alex Rodriguez

24/10/2013 14:47:03

Here's my attempt to answer the margin question on page 262.
What facilitated the rooting of Buddhism within China?
Well, Buddhism was introduced to China through the Silk Roads during the 1st and 2nd centuries. When the Han dynasty collapsed around 200 C.E. Buddhism became easy to accept because The discredited Confucianism and were more open to alternative understandings of the world. Also, Buddhism provided some comfort after the collapse of the Han dynasty. Another factor was when the Northern nomads ruled parts of Northern China they found Buddhism useful because it was different and foreign.
Hoped this kinda helped for people studying at the last minute.

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China's "long shadow" Strayer 9

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